A Dialogue between a Muslim man and a Christian Woman

Part 3


Dr. Mohsen EL-Guindy

We still see Omar and Jennifer sitting in the living room continuing their conversation.

Jennifer: “Do you have any other questions you would like to know about?”

Omar: “The normal creation of Allah had been changed by giving lesbians the right to live together and even marry each other and work in the army. These abnormal creatures should be reformed and taken back to normality instead of encouraging them to spread debauchery. Am I wrong to think so?”

Jennifer: “Well, back to churches again. There is churches led by lesbians as the preacher. There are marriages performed in many churches between homosexuals of both sexes. Homosexual couples are allowed to adopt children in most states. Teenagers who are homosexual can bring homosexual partners to school dances. There is no discrimination allowed by the U.S. government concerning homosexuals. It is as important as a person’s race. It is also worse if you kill a homosexual than if you kill a heterosexual, it is considered a ‘hate crime’. You will serve a longer prison sentence, or be put to death more quickly.”

The thought here is that homosexuals are not hurting anyone. They do not teach homosexuality to others, and they do not prey on young people. They are not pedophiles as the priests we spoke of earlier. Most are law abiding, taxpaying, solid members of society, with only this difference in their sexual persuasion.”

It has been my experience, and my true belief that there are biological homosexuals. That is, humans born truly differently. You can tell by looking at them, that they are not all male or all female. Their brain function differently, they are a combination of both sexes somewhere on the inside, even if not on the outside. What should we do with them? Kill them all? They are not horrible humans.”

And there are people who have decided to be homosexual, through psychological problems, early mistreatment by their caretakers, etc. These people might be able to be reformed, but I do not believe the biological homosexuals can be reformed.”

Omar: “The matter is not that easy Jennifer. These abnormal creatures are enormously extending in your community thus spreading debauchery everywhere, and threatening the country’s morals. Estimates of the number of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth in the United States range from 5 to 6 percent of the total population. An estimated two million to eight million parents in the United States are lesbian or gay. Their children are no more likely than any other youth to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender, but they are often targeted for harassment and violence because of their parents’ sexual orientation or because their peers believe that they share their parents’ sexual orientation.”

Discrimination based on sexual orientation still permeates many areas of American life. Strange enough, the American Civil Liberties Union has actively supported the struggle for lesbian and gay civil rights. For lesbians and gay men, issues of family and intimate relationships are important. These include parenting, custody, and adoption rights, as well as the recognition of relationships, including marriage and domestic partnership. Since the 1970s the American Civil Liberties Union has supported the right of lesbians and gay men to marry and more recently has vigorously opposed state and federal laws aimed at preventing lesbians and gay men from marrying.”
Jennifer: “What would you say if I tell you that the American Academy of Pediatrics has endorsed homosexual adoption, saying gay couples can provide the loving, stable and economically healthy family lives that children need?”

Omar: “It’s a group of pro-homosexual people who want to further tear down the one-man, one-woman relationship in America.”

Jennifer: “But the academy’s policy statement said, “There is no basis in which to assume that a parental homosexual orientation will increase likelihood of or induce a homosexual orientation in the child. Do you know that the Canadian province of Quebec is set to recognize civil unions for gays and lesbians? A draft bill, unveiled in the Quebec legislature, would give same-sex couples the same rights and obligations as married heterosexual couples. Gays and lesbians would get most benefits of married couples, including health and insurance benefits, special tax status and rights to benefits after divorce or death.”

Omar; “This bill will produce and promote an unhealthy lifestyle. There is a striking rise in new HIV infections among men who have sex with other men in high-income countries where over 75,000 people became infected with HIV in 2001. Gay men were the first group hit by the AIDS epidemic.”

Jennifer: “Does Islam disallow homosexuality?”

“Islam and in fact virtually every other religion have condemned homosexuality as an evil act and abomination. It is one of the sins that the people of Prophet Lot were guilty of. The Koran said in this respect:

And Allah sent Lot who said to his people, “Do you commit such indecency as never any being in all the world has committed before you? (Al A’raf, 80).

Most surely you approach men lustfully instead of women, indeed you are a people who are transgressors” (Al A’raf, 81).

And Lot, We gave him wisdom and knowledge, and we rescued him from the town that had been committing deeds of abomination, surely they were an evil people, transgressors (Al Anbiya, 74).

He said: “My Lord, help me against these corrupters.” (Al Ankabout, 30).

And when our messengers came to Abraham with the glad tidings, they said: We are to destroy the people of this town, surely they are evildoers.” (Al Ankabout, 31).
He said: “But Lot is therein”, they said: “We are well aware of who is there, we shall save him and his family, except his wife, she shall be of those who are destroyed.” (Al Ankabout, 32).

We shall bring down upon the people of this town torment from the sky for their wickedness.” (AL Ankabout, 34).”

The Koran then describes homosexuality as a shameful deed, a transgressing of bounds, and one of the abominations and wickedness that the people of Lot used to practice. It describes them as people of corruption, as evildoers and wrongdoers; as people for whom the friend of Allah Abraham was forbidden from arguing for holding back their punishment:

“O Abraham! Relinquish this, your Lord’s command has been given, and surely the chastisement coming upon them cannot be averted.” (Hood, 76).”

The people of Lot were afflicted with such a severe punishment as is not known to have befallen any other nation. Their houses were uprooted from their foundations, and raised into the skies, to the extent that the angels could hear the barking of their dogs and the braying of their donkeys, and then they were thrown back, overturned, only to have a hail of stones rain down upon them, and then left to see their fate.”

When our command came to pass, We turned the habitation upside down, and rained on them brimstones, hard as baked clay, continuously piling-

Each one assigned from your Lord, and never far from the evildoers (Hood, 82-83).”

In this way they were made a sign for all nations, an admonition to the pious, and a dissuasion and precedent for those of the wicked who follow them in their deed. They were seized unawares, in their sleep. Allah’s punishment came to them while they were in their distracted drunkenness, and then all that they had earned was of no avail to them. Their delights were transmuted into pains, for they awoke to feel the punishment. Their lusts were brought to an end, and replaced with miseries. They reveled a little, and then moved on to an enduring torment. They regretted when regret was no longer of benefit.

The Prophet is reported to have said:

“Those whom you find doing the deed of the people of Lot, kill the doer (of it) and the one on whom it is done.”

Homosexuality is a perversion, and a rebellion against nature. Those hose who claim it is an alternative lifestyle would not deceive us.”
Jennifer: “But what about those who claim that they have homosexual urges or tendencies?”

Omar: “Such tendencies may arise either due to some conscious perversion on the part of the person himself, or Satan may whisper such temptations to him. If the person played some part in giving birth to or nurturing such thoughts, then he bears a burden of guilt to that extent. In any case, he should realize that such urges are wrong and unnatural, and hence should strive to rid himself of them with even more determination than one would use to dispel thoughts of fornication, for the latter could be legitimated by a marriage contract, while the former, being an unnatural perversion, can never be legitimated. Often, such a tendency will be largely psychological. Satan manages to convince the person, or he convinces himself, that he cannot help this.

So, homosexuality is not something uncontrollable, over which the person has no choice. Yes, it may reach the stage where the person becomes unable to keep himself from it, but here Allah may punish him by leaving him in his misguidance such that he is unable to extricate himself from it.

“And whoever diverges from the Messenger after the guidance has become clear to him, and follows other than the path of the believers, We shall turn him over to that to which he (himself) has turned, and We shall burn him in hell. How evil an outcome!” (An Nisa, 115).”

But what is even more spiritually debilitating to the person is if he goes still further, to claim that the act is legitimate, for at that point he has committed polytheism by placing himself in the role of legislator, a role which is the sole prerogative of Allah.”

Omar ceased talking for long minutes then said regretfully, “All the sins Allah had forbidden are lawfully committed in America. With globalization America is going to export its culture, thus threatening the traditions of others. Globalization if is not modified according to the conditions of the third world it will devour our countries.”
Jennifer: “I am afraid you are right. I also fear the globalization of our world. They say we are the last generation to see Europe as individual countries, with their individual cultures, because soon, all of Europe will be like the U.S. portrayed in the movies. All sins are committed here is true. We have the constitutional right to be as we please as long as we are not breaking laws of the U.S. The laws of the U.S. were made to guarantee our freedom of religious oppression. We can be religious if we want to, or we can be free of religion if we want to. There are all kinds of people here. There are people of very high standards for themselves, maybe based on religion, or maybe because their standards happen to match your religion or mine. We are free to change our minds about our beliefs. Someone living a life of debauchery for years can remake himself into someone of good character and trust, and be accepted by others like that. The much-revered leader can fall into debauchery and remain there. He is free to do so. This is America. The points you make are all true. This is a country based on majority rule. We can change our minds. We can be individuals.”

Omar contemplated Jennifer’s words for a while then said, “I feel like a stranger in America. I am in a world that is totally different than mine. What you people think is good, to us is bad. What you think is liberal, to us is wrong and unlawful. What you think is modern lifestyle, to us is backwardness and dangerous. With all her might and advanced civilization, America looks to me from the outside like a ripe red apple, but from the inside I see worms eating its pulp and kernel.”

Jennifer: “There is really so much good and beauty here too, as there is anywhere. We are a nation of freedom of choice, just as the Christian religion teaches that God allows us to make choices for ourselves. I know of many young people who are virgins, university age and older, because that is a life of choice they have made for themselves. It doesn’t get much press. I know many families that are stable, loving, caring, where the man loves his wife and cherishes her and the wife loves and cherishes the man, and they raise children in love, and stay married to each other without other partners. I know many businessmen who are honest, who take care of their customers and would never cheat anyone. I know many people that have never taken a drug, never taken a drink of liquor or smoked a cigarette, or gambled. I know people who regularly give to the poor, work for the poor, help take care of the sick, help the homeless, mentor fatherless young people, and on and on. There are millions of very decent, very good people here in America, of every religion. Also in the Christian religion we are taught that God will spare a nation if there is only one true good person residing there. I think we have more than one.”

Jennifer said in a low voice as if whispering to herself, “The pendulum swims back and forth, and if now America is too far a certain way, the pendulum will swing back as people change their minds and their ways. Finally the pendulum will stop in the middle ground, who knows when? Or perhaps America will be only a brief flash in the timeline of the universe, such as the fabled Atlantis, too much, too soon.”

“Jennifer, could we meet halfway?” Omar asked hopefully.

Jennifer smiled at him and said, “We have already met halfway. Openly discussing these things, desiring to stretch a bridge between two cultures, is a halfway point I think. But now, will one of us throw the other off this bridge?”